Spoiler alert: This post discusses the season 3 finale of Hacks.
Hacks, Maximum loaded with prizes comedy-drama starring Jean Smart and Hannah Einbinder returned for its long-awaited third season earlier this month. The series follows stalwart Deborah Vance (Smart) as she vie for renewed cultural relevance alongside her courageous young writer, Ava Daniels (Einbinder). While the power in the pair’s tumultuous relationship has historically belonged to Deborah — a woman who is no stranger to forcing her hands for the sake of her career — a seismic shift occurred this season.
Hosting a late-night show has always been Deborah’s white whale, especially after a previous opportunity for her to do so fell through decades ago, but at the end of the penultimate episode she finally nabbed it. With Ava’s help, she gets a job as a presenter. Then, in the Thursday finale, after being unceremoniously denied the head writer position by Deborah, Ava forces herself into the role by threatening to blackmail the new Queen of Late Night — because it would be “really, really bad” if people They found out that Deborah had slept with the company president right before launching her own show, didn’t they?
TIME spoke with Einbinder about Ava’s shocking power play, the importance of on-screen homosexuality and the Emmy-nominated actor and comedian’s upcoming stand-up special, Everything has to go, premieres on June 13th on Max.
TIME: Let’s go straight to the final episode. Are we watching Ava transform into Deborah?
Einbinder: I think she’s cornered and has no choice but to follow instructions. I think Deborah explains exactly what she expects her world to be like and Ava has no choice but to follow her lead. Ava clearly expresses, through tears, that she doesn’t want to be a shark. She wants to collaborate. And Deborah says, “That’s not how it works.” So she kind of had to go into Ava-bad-girl mode. She’s Ava Scarface, she’s Ava Montana. She is a scary, scary girl in the end. But I don’t think that’s becoming who she is.
When it comes to confronting Deborah, Ava’s tail is usually between her legs. What was different for her this time?
I think it’s the last straw. Ava sacrificed more than ever to be there for Deborah. She left her relationship and head writer position at her amazing, prestigious, cool job in Los Angeles. It’s such a serious betrayal. It’s so different from all other times, it’s much worse. So I guess she has no choice because Deborah is leaving her completely dry. I mean, yeah, she’s saying she can be number two [writer]but it’s so disrespectful.
Do you think Ava’s decision to blackmail her way into the head writer role will come back to affect her – or Deborah’s late night show – in the future?
I think these girls are best when they’re getting along, so it’s definitely possible this could become a deal breaker for both of them.
You initially thought you were being written out of the show after learning that Deborah fired Ava at the end of season 2. How did you react when you found out how this new season would end?
I was surprised. I didn’t know she had it in her. And I was certainly sad to see what led her to this place, but on some level I’m proud of her for standing up for herself and really standing up for what she needed to do here.
What kind of energy were you channeling when you filmed the final scene?
I was trying to be like, mafia. I was trying to be a mobster. When they told me about it, I knew exactly what Ava would be like and I was happy to see that instinct made the final cut. Because there’s a flash of fear when Deborah approaches Ava and says, “You wouldn’t do that,” but then she just stands there. And I was scared to watch [back]! I was like, “Oh my God, she’s being so scary right now.”
There’s an episode mid-season where Ava and Deborah get lost in the woods. Tell me about your experience filming these scenes with Jean.
They were so vulnerable. Many of the topics explored on the show are very personal to all of us. When I talk about my experience as a queer person, and when Jean talks about her experiences as a woman of a certain age, we are exploring something that is real to us. It feels very, very visceral and it’s so important to talk about this for us as individuals and for the writers who also make up so many of these incredible groups that we feature on the show.
In that same episode, Ava stops to identify some mushrooms she sees along the trail – chanterelles. It is known that they are sometimes confused with other poisonous species.
Yes, every edible mushroom you choose has an identical poisonous sister. This is why you need to be very thorough, my friends, when foraging for food, and have three-factor authentication for the mushrooms you find.
Why do you think this moment was included in the episode? Was it a hint of what would happen between Ava and Deborah?
This is a very interesting perspective. I really think [the writers] they were like, “Here’s a funny thing about Hannah, let’s just throw that into the show.” But I love the fungus as a metaphor for Ava’s journey. I think it’s brilliant. I hadn’t considered this yet, and now that I have, it’s so true.
Hacks shut down production last year due to the WGA strike, and you were frequently on the SAG-AFTRA picket line during negotiations. How did you feel when you finally made it back to set?
On the one hand, it was good because I was happy that we were all together, but there is still a lot of work to be done. IATSE still has such an unfair contract. Our teams are a fundamental part of this industry and they are still not getting paid what they deserve. So there’s a big part of me that had mixed emotions about this, because even though the writers got a good deal and the actors got a good deal, our teams, the Teamsters, are the people who make this happen, they get paid less. and they are treated the worst and that sucks. So it’s bittersweet.
What was it like working with all the new guest stars this season?
Helen Hunt is obviously so legendary. The character she’s playing is so scary and she’s the calmest person in real life, with such incredible calm energy. And J. Smith Cameron is so sweet and wonderful. Seeing her as Kathy makes a lot of sense. I only saw Christopher Lloyd in the makeup trailer, but he’s obviously a king, a legend, an icon, a star. And Cristina [Hendricks], she is one of the best actresses. So it’s always a fun day at work.
How did you manage to maintain your composure while filming the intimate but insane final scene you shared with Hendricks?
When we’re in rehearsal, we’re laughing and joking, but when it’s time to go, you’re locked in and it feels real to you. So when you get into the reality of hooking up with someone and then finding out they’re a Republican who fights, it becomes very real and less absurd. Like, right now, it’s horrible.
Hacks It’s a very gay show. What do you think the series offers its queer viewers that we haven’t historically seen much of in the media?
It’s by queers for queers. We are responsible for the stories and we write them and also perform them so that they feel authentic and true because they simply are. Nobody’s guessing here at Hacks. We are speaking from experience.
You have a few things in common with Ava, namely your bisexuality and your career in comedy. Have you ever worried that people will confuse the two of you?
We have quite a few similarities on paper. But I know her intimately and I feel like the character was so formed by the time I auditioned that I see her as so separate. I definitely feel good if people feel like it’s real. It makes me feel like I’m doing my job.
Do these similarities make it easier for you to settle into the character?
Of course. I think [the same] for many of the actors on our show. We have queer actors playing queer characters in every case. So it’s good for all of us to tell our own stories. And as a comedian, it’s so good to ground ourselves in that frequency that we share.
What else would you like to see when it comes to strange narrative on the screen?
I hope there is more faith in trans representation and the ability of trans people to portray themselves. Monica, starring Trace Lysette, is a great example of such an amazing film. Trace got to lead the film and she killed it and did a dramatic and harrowing job. It’s such a beautiful, beautiful piece of cinema that was independent and didn’t have a lot of money behind it. So I would love to see more money behind these amazing queer stories and of course more queer people in a position to be the authors of these stories.
Deborah’s age plays a very important role in the series. Is working Hacks Has it changed the way you think about aging?
I feel lucky to be a comedian and to do something you can do at any age, anyway. I understand that we are in a very vain business. It wasn’t something I considered as much as I do now, but I feel good about it because as a stand-up comedian, you don’t have to look a certain way for the job.
Have any of your own experiences as a stand-up influenced any of Deborah’s stories?
Many of our writers in Hacks are stand-ups. And a lot of the show touches on a lot of reference points in Paula Poundstone and Joan Rivers and Phyllis Diller and all these women who are iconic and have [lived] public lives. For me, a lot less than for the women who came before me, but every time I see the scripts, I think, “Yes.” He is always very faithful to life.
Deborah is the face of a QVC empire. If you had to sell something online, what would it be?
It would be a bamboo matcha whisk because bamboo is actually sustainable. QVC is the conduit to the landfill with all these horrible fabrics that are purely waste. Plastic, polyester, etc. So I would choose a fabric that is sustainable. A tiny little thing you could put in your tea and it would be a useful tool. Sorry, [that’s an] Ava responds.
His first comedy special, Everything has to go, will be released next month. What do you hope people take away from this hour?
I hope they feel touched and learned something. Like I took them on a little adventure. My stand-up is theatrical and is mixed media. I explore a variety of performance styles within my schedule, so I just hope it feels different to people and feels like an escape, just for a little while.
Did Deborah teach you anything about comedy?
Never miss an opportunity for self-promotion. Guys, my special is at Max in June. MAX, like that guy in high school who played lacrosse. That’s where you can see it. That’s where it will be. I’m there. Well you know I’m there. I’m kind of a princess of that place. So yes, June. We ride.
This interview has been edited for clarity.
This story originally appeared on Time.com read the full story
